It's The Anny Carr Show...Starring Anny Carr

Woundedness, dualism, and ministry models

2006-02-26T19:31:00.000-08:00

Ann-Elise- Good questions about the pure emerging churcher, are they healthier than all us wounded churchers? My hope would be yes, that there’s something special about the emerging church and they will create the perfect church. So in one or two generations the church will be perfect. But I know that’s hogwash, there is still sin in the world. Even though we may not see the emerging church’s sin right now, their blind spots will eventually reveal themselves. People will be hurt. In my struggle with the church I’ve realized I need to forgive people and the church and take responceiblity for my woundedness. I think we always will need to take responsibility for our woundedness because people will always get hurt.

Katie- You talked about worshiping God with all our being. One of the most neon (bracingly bright) things about post-modern mindset to me is the denial of dualism. I’ve come to see how much I’ve divided the secular and the sacred (and I would never have thought I did that, it’s just so pervasive). Even going so far as to think that physical things were "evil" and spiritual things were "holy." (Of course this was all unconscious and deeply hidden.) This is such a bad theology and has caused a lot of damage. I read recently about how monks and spiritually minded people flogged themselves to punish their bodies since they were evil. This may be an extreme example but there are hundred of small ways we punish ourselves if we have a dualistic worldview.

John- I too like the five fold ministry mode. I think a group becomes out of balance with just one leader and one style. But the working out of this is messy and complicated but I think the emerging churches are trying in the midst of messy and I give them a big hooray!

The Shaping of Things to Come and the MCAC

2006-02-22T23:57:00.000-08:00

Incarnational

The incarnational church differs from the extraction/single convert growth model in several ways by being a missional culture. Being a missional culture means several things including focusing on group conversions instead of individual conversions, meeting people on unbeliever’s turf, finding persons of peace in a community, and fellowshipping in small groups not large group meetings. The Mega-Charismatic-Apostolic Church at its core is the traditional extraction/single convert style of church yet it has elements of an incarnational church. This church deeply desires the Kingdom of God and to fulfill the Great Commission and the Greatest Commandment. Those desires allow for openness to new ways of effective ministry. They still focus on individual conversion and the old pattern of giving an evangelistic message but the church would be flexible and allow new forms of evangelism. The pastor would strongly support relational missions and going out into unbeliever’s turf. The pastor preaches regularly about workplace ministry and witnessing where you go. The idea of finding persons of peace may be a newer concept. The Mega-Charismatic-Apostolic Church plants churches but I am not familiar with their church planting techniques. As far as fellowshipping in small groups instead of the large group meetings, the Mega-Charismatic-Apostolic Church is about half and half. They definitely meet in a large group, it’s a very large church. But the main relationship building, fellowship, and mission happen in small groups. The difference between those small groups and the incarnational small group is their lack of autonomy. The MCAC’s small groups are under the leadership of the senior pastor.

Messianic

Frost and Hirsch define messianic as relating to the work of Jesus of the gospels. They mean without interpreting Jesus’ work through historic church dogmatics or the Pauline epistles. They claim that Jesus is very different than traditionally viewed. And as a consequence traditional mission is different than Jesus’ example. The MCAC’s view of Jesus seems to be traditionally bent. I think they would interpret Jesus through Paul’s writings. Although I think they would be offended if told that. Otherworldliness, or dualism, is completely contradictory to messianic living. The MCAC’s preached theology is dualistic. Worldly pleasure is moderately condemned. "Spiritual matters" are considered more important than "worldly matters." Culture and mundane life are not reverenced. The MCAC is not fulfilling the messianic calling in its highest form.

Apostolic

The MCAC claims to be apostolic. They preach that all gifts are needed and useful. They encourage people to use their spiritual giftings in people’s work environment. But the MCAC has a theology that the senior pastor has spiritual authority over the congregation. This gives the pastor more power than the other members. The five-fold ministry is not supported. The non-head pastor members of the church do not have an equal voice in the church. Other churches like the MCAC have problems because of this philosophy. Controlling people become head pastor and create an unhealthy atmosphere in the church. The theology that the head pastor is the "Lord’s anointed" can create many problems in a church and does not create an apostolic missional church.

Mosaic digs artists

2006-02-19T15:07:00.000-08:00

So as of 2:41 on Sunday February 19th only Ann-Elise has posted a blog for A Churchless Faith so I’ll comment on Ann-Elise’s post. Goody, Ann-Elise you get all my attention. So Mosaic is your church! That’s great. I went to Mosaic once. I really liked the message, music, and atmosphere but I didn’t think it was the church for me. I tend to be a wild charismatic and needed crazier people around me. I agreed with Ann-Elise I think artists are welcome at Mosaic. As an artist myself I felt that primal pulling that many artist feel to Mosaic. I think artists could be comfortable at Mosaic and even appreciated. The only quip I have with artists and the church is that painter on the side of the alter during a worship service. My church does this also. It seems to disrespect the artist’s process. My process isn’t anything like what the stage artist seems to go through. When I create an art work, I first feel inspired. I’ll then sketch the design on paper. I’ll rework that design several times until I am satisfied. I then create my work but altering the work as I go along. It is not an easy process or a linear process. You can not tell how the finished work will look. It’s struggle and process mixed with blood and tears. Creating an artwork is like birthing a child. It’s messy. The alter art seems too clean, too easy. It insults my process. What I like about the emerging churches is they seem to understand the artist. They seem to understand the struggle. Art, to them, is not a spectator sport but something they work to understand. In Eddie and Ryan’s book, I enjoyed the stories of the community producing art night or exhibits to experience. I imagined how powerful those worship services were. I fantasized that I also could worship God through visual means and not just proclamation that is customary at most churches. I think the emerging church understands artists and that is good for my soul.

A Churchless Faith and the Mega-Charismatic-Apostolic Church

2006-02-15T23:36:00.000-08:00

Alan Jamieson’s A Churchless Faith was an interesting book since I’ve found myself in this category. I left the church for several years and I saw myself repeatedly through the book. As I’ve returned to church I’m determined to change somethings that pushed me out. A Churchless Faith helped me to connect my experience and common themes to other’s experiences and draw conclusions about what church is and is not. It has caused me to think. I must ruminate on the book longer. Some of my writings are "passions" I collected from my churchless years. Many of my thoughts are still in development but this class and this book are helping me tie pieces together.

Jamieson writes, "EPC churches have a strong focus on evangelism, seeing people come out of the ‘world’ and into the ‘church.’...This emphasis has reduced the priority for the issues of social justice, political concern and the ongoing development of an individual’s faith beyond the point of conversion and the process of early discipleship." (24) This statement rang true from my experience. This is the vital point that makes people lose interest in the church. The over-emphasis on evangelism to the neglect of everything else creates a bored, tired, and unenthusiastic Christian. Jesus called us to make disciples not just converts. Christians aren’t encouraged to develop their faith after a certain point. It’s like we have churches of perpetual three year olds. Because people don’t develop their faith and continue to grow in the faith and character they don’t have the spiritual resources to do the work of the kingdom. Since we don’t do the work of the kingdom, like social justice, Christians aren’t fulfilled in their faith and doubt their spiritual depth. This is why people leave. My church is very guilty at creating three year old Christians. They emphasize evangelism over all other areas of ministry.

The Mega-Charismatic-Apostolic Church is a charismatic non-denominational church. They have many of the same strengths and problems that other charismatic churches have. Jamieson describes the charismatic church, "[t]he charismatic and Pentecostal movements brought in their wake an authoritarian leadership style that expected leaders to lead and tended to give their congregations little say in decision-making." (25) The Mega-Charismatic-Apostolic Church has this leadership style. One prominent personality leads the whole congregation in a father like capacity. There was a place for this in modernity but postmodernity emphasizes equality and individualism. This leadership style will be a problem in the postmodern culture. This trait may be one of the primary fights between the charismatic church and postmodernity. Postmodern people want to lead through consensus or have a very loose leadership style. The charismatic church depends on strong personalities and giftings for leadership instead of education. This will also be a problem since many postmodern people are educated (or at least self-educated). Postmodern people are not as dazzled by brilliant personalities. They want substance and depth.

Jamieson also references the worship style of the charismatic church and describes its emphasis on "free praise and open prayer" in a contemporary, electric guitar style. Jamieson mentions how this changed from a liturgical style including hymns, written prayers, silence, and other forms of traditional worship. He notes this change reflects "the mood of society in its increasing individualism." (25) What is odd is the postmodern generation is usually described as individualistic but they increasingly want the traditional God focused worship. This is due to the need to worship something greater than oneself. The Mega-Charismatic-Apostolic Church uses the free worship style associated with charismatic churches. This style is fun, free, and emotional. It would be nice if the worship service included more traditional forms of worship including silence and awe-inspiring practices.

The leaver-sensitive church promotes several principles. The first provide places for people to explore, question, and to doubt is necessary. Within today’s questioning world it is unreasonable to expect people to accept a faith agenda without first questioning that idea. Science has provided too many alternatives to the Biblical standard that to not question some ideas seems ludicrous. The Mega-Charismatic-Apostolic Church provides some room to explore but it limits questions also. The Mega-Charismatic-Apostolic Church tends to be fundamentalist about many Christain doctrines and as a result fights questions and doubt. Doubt is thought to be anti-faith. The next suggestion for leaver-sensitive churches is to provide a theology of journey. This is the idea that the Christian life is a pilgrimage that must be developed. The Mega-Charismatic-Apostolic Church uses words like sanctification and transformation. They encourage Christian growth and development. If one measured them with a scale of 1-10 with 10 being perfection they would rate around a five for allowing the Christian faith to be a journey. They understand Christian maturity and changing over time but do not allow for the questioning and hardship phases of the Christian life. There could be more development of the theology of journey. The next principle for leaver-churches is to provide models of other theological understandings. The Mega-Charismatic-Apostolic Church is very immature in this characteristic. They feel strongly about their beliefs and do not allow much wiggle room. This is an area they could work towards. Providing models of honest Christian life rather than "shoulds" is a very worthwhile suggestion. I have noticed most people feel shame about the quality of their spiritual life. I think if people stop comparing themselves with others and coming up short they may be able to access where they really want to be in their Christain life. The next measure, provide room for emotions and intuitions allows people to be honest with each other. Through honesty people can build genuine relationships. I do not know where my church measures with the last two standards. I have met genuine people and I have met fake people. I do not know how the leadership operates.

This book, especially chapter ten, helped me think about problems in the church I’ve wondered about for several years. This book helped me to consider other people’s experiences and contrast them with my own experiences. I hope to intergrate these ideas into my church and see change that need to occur.

Emerging Churches and The Mega-Charismatic-Apostolic Church

2006-02-12T15:22:00.000-08:00

Emerging Churches and The Mega-Charismatic-Apostolic Church

The book Emerging Churches by Eddie Gibbs and Ryan K. Bolger gives nine principles that are representational of emerging churches. This paper compares and analyses my church the Mega-Charismatic-Apostolic Church. The Mega-Charismatic-Apostolic Church is a large non-denominational church that believes in the move of the Holy Spirit. I will use the nine principles and assess where this church falls within the principles. The nine principles are identifying with the life of Jesus, transforming secular space, live highly communal lives, welcome the stranger, serve with generosity, create as creative beings, lead as a body, take part in spiritual activities.

identifying with the life of Jesus
I really resinate with the emerging churches kingdom emphasis. Eddie Gibbs and Ryan Bolger’s statement that, "the gospel, as proclaimed by Jesus Christ and as understood by the early church, was always more than simply a message of personal salvation and, even more narrowly, the way to get to heaven when one dies." profoundly states my feelings about the gospel (Gibbs & Bolger, 48). I have struggled with the existing model of ministry and evangelism. It leaves people with an empty religion that fails to minister in real crisis and increasingly fails to address the real needs of people. The understanding that there is only one mission, God’s mission, Missio Dei, and the mission of God flows out, not in, from the people of God speaks to people. Every person is seeking destiny and immortality through a significant work. The emerging church emphasis on the kingdom offers people a way to fulfill this deep need. The world cries out for a mission. It is an ingrained felt need. Emerging churches understand this need and seek to invite people to participate in the good news. My church has a limited view of mission. The Mega-Charismatic-Apostolic Church sees mission mostly in spiritual terms. They use intercession and modern approaches to evangelism as their main means of mission. They are deeply moved by the failures of the culture to uphold God’s standard. But there is very little interaction with the culture to change the failures. They preach and protest against abortion but do not address other issues. They lack an understanding that mission is also a political-ethical-social justice dynamic. They seek to live holy lives set apart by Jesus but maybe lack a sense that Jesus was not "of" the world but he was definitely "in" the world.

transforming secular space
My Mega-Charismatic-Apostolic Church seeks to be holy and different from the world. This philosophy lead to isolationism and secularizing the culture. There is a sense that culture is secular and thus evil. The next emerging church principle of transforming secular space de-evilizes secular culture. The emerging church recognizes that culture is just that, culture. It is not holy or evil but a reflection of a particular group of people. Of all the nine principles of the emerging church this is my church’s weakest element.

live highly communal lives
Gibbs and Bolger write, "kingdom communities do not function as affinity groups but more like extended families" (44). The emerging churches communal focus is my favorite aspect of this movement. I think community is essential to living a kingdom lifestyle. Discipleship, mission, and the love of God all happen as a result of community. True discipleship, a transforming encounter with God and truth, happen most effectively through honest and mutual relationships. People must open themselves to each other to really be formed into the likeness of Christ. Likewise, mission happens when two or more disciples actively engage the world. People know Christians by their love for one another but without community that love is not expressed. Without community a Christian looks like a "nice" person and does not stand out from the world. Mission is also easier with a team. Humans are relational creatures and teamwork enables us to fulfill our calling with grace and ease. The love of God is only expressed through community. You can experience God’s love alone but it can not be expressed alone. Love produces love so it is better to give it away than keep it to oneself. My church is struggling with community. This is the one area I am diligently addressing with my church. They boost of small groups and preach that community happens in those groups but the church lacks cohesiveness and welcome.

welcome the stranger
The Mega-Charismatic-Apostolic Church is pretty advanced at welcoming the stranger. They continuously open the doors to other groups to use the impressive complex they run. While the stranger is welcomed they try to share the love of Christ, albeit in a very modern way. But I applaud my church for their efforts to welcome the stranger.

serve with generosity
The emerging church’s philosophy emphasizes that service is apart of their mission. It is not a means to an end. It is Christ-like to serve others because God calls us to serve. The Mega-Charismatic-Apostolic Church has a more "serve to bring people to Christ" attitude. They believe in service but they use service as a tool to accomplish other goals.

create as created beings and participate as producers
Create as created being is a hard area for me to evaluate in the Mega-Charismatic-Apostolic Church. The "priest hood of all believers" is a strong value. Thus they encourage everyone to use their gifts well. The problem arises when only a limited number of the community expresses their gifts in the worship service. Those who express do so well but the majority of the congregation do not get to participate. The select few offer their gifts to the audience like congregation. This church has high marks with create as created beings but low marks on participate as producers.

lead as a body
I think an advantage to the leaderless model or a full participation leader model is that everyone feels responceiblity to the group and the kingdom. It is not just one person working and everyone else observing. The authoritarian pastor model dis-empowers the people. You have one shepard and hundreds of wandering sheep. Whereas in a fluid leadership model there are hundreds of commando’s storming the city. The Mega-Charismatic-Apostolic Church uses the authoritarian pastor model. The people are not empowered to storm the city.

take part in spiritual activities
The Mega-Charismatic-Apostolic Church is very spiritually inclined. They believe in the Holy Spirit and it’s ministry. The music worship is primarily loud, rock music but they support other forms of spirituality. They believe strongly in intercession, contemplation, and prophecy. The music selection could be more meditative but they still function in spiritual activities.

The Mega-Charismatic-Apostolic Church is not an emerging church. It is primarily a Modern type church. It will never fully be an emerging church. But it can benefit from the emerging church movement. I plan to intergrate the principles discussed through Emerging Churches to balance the Modern emphasis. The Mega-Charismatic-Apostolic Church needs to reach the post-modern culture and balance some of their beliefs.

All about me

2006-01-31T20:47:00.000-08:00

I was born in Bryan Texas... Thirty-two years later I am a second year MDiv student at Fuller Theological Seminary. My life is to search for God. I want to know truth and I am willing to search hard and long for it. Before Fuller I graduated with my degree in Visual Arts from University of Houston. I have been a missionary to the U.S., a massage therapist, a lone monastic, an Art teacher, and many other roles in my search for truth. I struggle with the Christian Church and my relationship with her is a love/hate one. I began my church training in infancy at a small "Jesus People" home church. Later my family attended a Presbyterian church, which I despised. I refused to attend so at the age of 11 stopped attending church. I became a Christian at twenty through a small elder- run Charismatic church. Community was the church's primary focus. I later attended a Vineyard church but left it disenchantment with the church. I spent several years outside the church. In this time I experimented with Catholic doctrine and spirituality. I attended a ten member small group for several years. This was the best "church" I've known. It was very organic, community based, and philosophical about God. We sought to love God and each other in honesty. Since coming to Pasadena California one year and a half ago I have searched for a church in which I fit. That church does not exist. I have decided to make peace with my love/hate relationship with the church. I have gone back to my first mother, the charismatic church. Today I attend Harvest Rock Church in Pasadena, California where I hope to find God, community, and a mission.

I'm taking Emerging Churches to define what is church. What is Christian community and missions. I want to understand the culture and how to do church today. I, like many others, are seeking for the essence of life, truth, and love. Does it exist in the church?